Anybody had a component repair done in the USA ??

poacher

Subscriber
For the more technically minded amongst us - perhaps Adi / Duncan, others will chip in, if they have any thoughts ??

I am trouble shooting an intermittent Caterpillar engine fault - in short, does not want to start when warm (let it cool down slightly, say 20 mins or 5 degrees, and away she goes goes again) - can make fuel station stops a nightmare -
otherwise starts / runs perfectly - saves 'she' guzzles diesel (y)(y) but you all know that, and it is why we love these big rigs :D:D

Most of my trouble shooting has been done with the assistance of the US forums / a CAT RV tech in the US - Finnings over here are about as much use as a chocolate fireguard :swear::swear: - save wanting to charge exorbitant sums of money for plugging in their computer and following the on-screen instructions - I have the same CAT ET software and am perfectly capable of reading !!

Extensive diagnostics thus far are pointing towards a heat related electrical contact separation - and presently leaning towards a suspect ECM (££££££££ :sweating::sweating::sweating:)

Finnings are not keen to 'lend me' a replacement ECM to try ;);) - awaiting a reply as to whether or not Finnings have / are interested in fitting a test ECM (assuming they have such a thing on this side of the pond !!) as this is the next step in the CAT SIS trouble shooting flow-chart (albeit this will cost me some workshop time because the ECM has to be configured for the engine (££££££) before any testing can begin)

As we are currently banned from going anywhere .........................
I have located a place in Texas that will bench, heat and vibration test the / my ECM

a) does anybody know of anywhere on this side of the pond that might be able to comprehensively test the ECM under all conditions

b) has anybody shipped a similar / other component to the US for testing / repair and how did you get on with Customs duties / forms etc (I understand export / import for repair are exempt)

(Until then I shall continue to leave 'her' ticking over whilst I refuel - and tell those who rebuke me, that it is only the on-board generator (y)(y)(y))

Apologies for the length of post
 

mick e450

Subscriber
first thing that comes to mind is fuel starve .forgive me for thinking the obvious but sometimes my wife sez the most ridiculous suggestions but can occasionaly be right !
Fuel filters tank filter etc ...????regards and good luck
 

shovelheadrob

Subscriber
I know a few people who have had stuff done in the USA, one was an F150 Lightning that got shipped over to have a seriously built motor & transmission fitted. The paperwork that covered everything made no mention of the upgrades (we're talking probably 40-50k here) just that some "warranty" work had been carried out. As the vehicle had only been exported temporarily there was no duty or vat payable, meaning that the couple of grand shipping was much better than the 10-15k that would have been charged on the parts & would still have cost quite a bit to ship.
In theory it should be possible to send the ECM for testing & the only taxes payable should be on the value of any chargeable repair. However you'll need to check with HMRC as to the exact conditions that have to be met, both here & in the USA.
I've had a couple of warranty claims from parts bought in the USA & they've always just sent replacements, rather than having me send what is basically scrap back, as it's an easier process, they've either prepaid the taxes (Rockauto) or I've had to pay them again this end. I did once ask/complain about the taxes, saying that I shouldn't be paying as it clearly stated "warranty replacement" on the delivery invoice, but was told that unless I had a paper trail for the original part, showing that it had either been returned or destroyed, I had to suck it up. I said I'd been told to destroy/dispose of it & had done, they said can you prove it..........
Good luck with it, I would have suggested Finnings, but doesn't sound like they're interested, hopefully @adi4 may have a better idea.
 

poacher

Subscriber
first thing that comes to mind is fuel starve .forgive me for thinking the obvious but sometimes my wife sez the most ridiculous suggestions but can occasionaly be right !
Fuel filters tank filter etc ...????regards and good luck
Mick,
Thanks for reply
Unfortunately not fuel starvation - no difference in fuel pressure when trying to start, cold or hot - confirmed with separate manual gauge - pressure well above CAT minimum spec
good fuel quantity expelling from pressure regulator when injectors not firing (HEUI system)

(Without wishing to over complicate things - the CAT C9 is NOT a common rail fuel system - the apparent lack of electrical contact (?) when warm seems to be preventing the HEUI pump from making the required oil pressure to fire the individual injectors - as soon as it ("something / somewhere") cools down a 'tad' the electrical connection 'strengthens' / re-establishes itself and "away she goes"

I just need to track down the 'something / somewhere' :):) :swear::swear::swear:
 

Merv-IOM

Subscriber
Hi Ian

Sorry to hear you're having problems with your CAT engine. I've no idea about shipping parts for repair/testing but I have dealt with
Barloworld/Finanzauto Caterpillar in Los Barrios (near Algeciras) and they were very helpful (I bought a second hand sump and bits from them a couple of years ago).

Are you anywhere near there?



Another wild shot is to contact Adept Ape on YouTube, he's a CAT engineer and may help.

I'll scratch my head some more and post anything else, but good luck mate
 

RV Neal

Subscriber
Sorry I cannot be any help other than saying tracing faults such as yours can be a very time-consuming nightmare. If it's any help the Ford 6.0 litre Powerstroke diesel is also a HEUI system with a High Pressure Oil Pump (HPOP) to provide the (ridiculously) high oil pressure needed to fire the injectors. If you have a spare couple of weeks you scour the Powerstroke forums and see if there are any clues there but I'd guess it's something specific to the Cat engine loom that causing the problem. Good luck and let us know what you find out.
 

Merv-IOM

Subscriber
Me again..

Can you read any error codes? (I have a ScangaugeD which lets me see any error codes).

Mine is a 3126e and I've uploaded lots of Caterpillar manuals into the resource section on here but here's a troubleshooting guide here;


Also here's a map of engine sensor locations;

1611418012501.png
May not be of any use, but worth a try ;)
 

poacher

Subscriber
Me again..

Can you read any error codes? (I have a ScangaugeD which lets me see any error codes).

Mine is a 3126e and I've uploaded lots of Caterpillar manuals into the resource section on here but here's a troubleshooting guide here;

May not be of any use, but worth a try ;)
Hi Merv,
Ours is a C9 unfortunately
I have CAT ET (Electronic Technician) - the same software that the CAT field service guys use
Unfortunately the engine doesn't throw any codes when warm and choosing not to start - I just wish it did

My dealings with Finings thus far, have ground to a halt a soon as the engine doesn't throw any fault codes - "there is nothing wrong with it" - okay, wise guy, why won't it start !! - hence my dealings with a guy in the States, who can think outside of the laptop !!

I will crack it - might just take a while (and shed loads of money :sweating: :sweating: :sweating: )
 
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poacher

Subscriber
Hard to say without looking,
Could be a number of things something silly like a oil pressure sensor or fuel sensor.
Thanks Jason,
coolant sensor replaced, air intake sensor replaced, boost sensor replaced, oil pressure sensor replaced - all confirmed operational and accurate with external gauges / temperature guns
wiring continuities to / from ECM checked & load checked - ECM pins all good and clean
in consultation with Finnings oil analysis laboratory - engine oil grade changed slightly to use a slightly thicker when warm oil - still no start
have even explored oil viscosity -v- temperature
everything pointed towards a faulty electrical connection inside the HEUI pump - so bullet bitten and HEUI pump replaced (£££££) - still no start, I was not happy :cry::cry::cry:
(a faulty internal connection was a known failing, amongst others, on the earlier Mk 2 HEUI pumps)

Trying to do all the lesser expensive things first, but the next step in CAT's trouble shooting is the 'test' ECM

Frustrating part is that 'she' only fails to start when warm, and if left to cool for 20 minutes or so, fires straight back up and runs perfectly, hence the leaning towards a failing electrical connection somewhere - just wish I could track it down
 

Daybreaker

Subscriber
Ours petrol used to not start when hot had to wait 30 mins at petrol stations embarrassing. Turned out to be injectors dribbling not your fix though Ian. Sounds really tricky that one.
 

poacher

Subscriber
Ours petrol used to not start when hot had to wait 30 mins at petrol stations embarrassing. Turned out to be injectors dribbling not your fix though Ian. Sounds really tricky that one.
Hi Bill,
no, not the injectors
we have established that the injectors are not firing - because, in simple terms, of the lack of smoke when she does start
it appears to be something electrical which isn't 'providing' adequate volts / amps to the HEUI pump when trying to start at operating temperature
best scenario, a loose / suspect connection somewhere I can locate / repair - worst scenario is a failing ECM (not unheard of in the CAT engine world)
 

tacr2man

Subscriber
If you know the pin out for the signal wire to the HEUI pump , and type of voltage needed can you hot feed it just before pump ? in other words try and reverse trace the break If you get what I mean . You mention that you are certain its lack of fuel injection , as no smoke , have you tried easy start to see if it runs up when getting a fuel source , to a point where the injection will self sustain .
 

WESTIES ON TOUR

Subscriber
Thanks Jason,
coolant sensor replaced, air intake sensor replaced, boost sensor replaced, oil pressure sensor replaced - all confirmed operational and accurate with external gauges / temperature guns
wiring continuities to / from ECM checked & load checked - ECM pins all good and clean
in consultation with Finnings oil analysis laboratory - engine oil grade changed slightly to use a slightly thicker when warm oil - still no start
have even explored oil viscosity -v- temperature
everything pointed towards a faulty electrical connection inside the HEUI pump - so bullet bitten and HEUI pump replaced (£££££) - still no start, I was not happy :cry::cry::cry:
(a faulty internal connection was a known failing, amongst others, on the earlier Mk 2 HEUI pumps)

Trying to do all the lesser expensive things first, but the next step in CAT's trouble shooting is the 'test' ECM

Frustrating part is that 'she' only fails to start when warm, and if left to cool for 20 minutes or so, fires straight back up and runs perfectly, hence the leaning towards a failing electrical connection somewhere - just wish I could track it down
Mmm sorry can't help you now some other options i was going to say but you have covered that was going to say (Heui) pump maybe low pressure, engine timing signal.

But does sound like a electrical issue as it starts when cold but when hot it doesn't as if some kind of electrical part is breaking down.

Maybe a job for Jason Kennedy.
 
I struggle to see what would be different in the ecm between starting when hot against running when hot, both need a feed to the heui pump. What about removing the ecm from the engine block as a trial so it doesn’t get heated by the engine. John Deere suffered from ecm overheating because of heat soak from the block.
 

poacher

Subscriber
I struggle to see what would be different in the ecm between starting when hot against running when hot, both need a feed to the heui pump. What about removing the ecm from the engine block as a trial so it doesn’t get heated by the engine. John Deere suffered from ecm overheating because of heat soak from the block.
Thanks for your reply

You have pre-empted one of my next planned diagnostics
I want to remove the ECM, 'clean' it and its connections and reconnect (perhaps with heat reflection on its engine side) and trial
Unfortunately on the C9 the ECM sits on the block immediately above the starter motor so needs to be put back 'in place' in order to start - will investigate if possible to leave loose for test purposes
I am also thinking heat soak - nice to learn somebody else (John Deere) has suffered from a similar issue - (I understand a German car manufacturer also had a similar issue)

I struggle to see what would be different in the ecm between starting when hot against running when hot, both need a feed to the heui pump.
I am presently thinking cold starting voltage / amperage -v- hot running voltage / amperage -v- hot starting voltage / amperage need investigating - it is on the list to be done -
I know that the hot power percentage (PWM signal strength) to the pump when running is a lot less than the power percentage (PWM) to the pump required when hot starting - hence my leaning towards a 'suspect' electrical connection somewhere
(When hot idles @ less than 50% 'power' (PWM) - still wont start @ 99% 'power' (PWM) - very frustrating)
 

poacher

Subscriber
If you know the pin out for the signal wire to the HEUI pump , and type of voltage needed can you hot feed it just before pump ? in other words try and reverse trace the break If you get what I mean . You mention that you are certain its lack of fuel injection , as no smoke , have you tried easy start to see if it runs up when getting a fuel source , to a point where the injection will self sustain .
Pin out numbers known - continuity all good

ECM to HEUI pump injection actuation pressure control valve voltages / amperages still to be investigated - when cold / hot / running

The issue appears to be that when hot the HEUI pump is not generating enough pressure to 'fire' the injectors - thoughts are the 'wobble plate' is not being instructed to tilt sufficiently - hence an electrical breakdown issue

Not sure about the use of 'easy start' because of air intake heater - perhaps an option to explore after disabling air intake heater - if the voltages / amperages are similar between cold and hot starting
 
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